This is how it started, once I wrote a comment on Paul’s post in Facebook. Paul a stern believer of Christianity and I as you all know a die-hard Atheist. There were serious of view points exchanged – The posts below!
Paul Ponraj
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful;
The Lord God made them all.
— Cecil F. Alexander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Things_Bright_and_Beautiful
If all created by God, then who created the God? The humans? - ohh yeah its Chicken & Egg story :-)
October 27 at 9:43am
He was never created ... he was, is and always will be.
October 27 at 10:54am
As per your Creationism (creationist theory) any intelligent, complex or any form of life, non-life has to have a creator. But the irony is that the creator would have also not existed by himself/ herself? as per your own theory!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism
Arul: It's all a matter of "decision" and "belief". I decided to believe that there is a Loving Creator, who was never created, but always existed! That makes me a "believer".
To a "believer", trying to understand God and all of His Creation, is like a newborn baby trying to understand Theory of Relativity ;)
Hey Paul you talk good really good….!
You r a believer and I respect that. Even I believed what you believing and read what you reading. But as a freethinker, I did choose to be a non-believer becaz
- I know our earth is definitely not just 6000 yrs old
- Morning and evening won’t happen without sun
- Earth is definitely not flat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society)... Read More
- Just for promised land murdering scores of Midianites, Canaanites is not really to be proud of.
- Slavery been endorsed and women were treated as mean material. Even today some congregations won’t allow nuns to become bishops.
- If I were born in Afgan, my mother would have sowed Jihad in me and I would be fighting in the name of a hypothetical creator.
Not really indented to offend you in any means, just given my view.
If you search Google for "if there is a God, why do bad things happen", there are many links that are thrown up. Perhaps one of that will make sense :)
BTW have you seen "unnai pol oruvan"? Liked the different ideas thrown up in that movie, which makes us think out of the box -- and no stupid songs at all! I particularly identified with the terrorist called Abdullah -- his 3rd wife and child were killed in a blast, so he became a terrorist to take revenge, and he believed he will be rewarded in ... Read Moreheaven for doing that. If I had been in Abdullah's place, I would have felt the same urge to take revenge, but killing others randomly to avenge myself ... that would not be right.
October 29 at 9:49pm
Once Blaise Pascal said “Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions”
If you notice every tribe has its own god once it was imperative to have him for men to defend his tribe. Particularly when fighting a war with neighbor tribes to protect his own, just motivate men going for war, that our god will protect us, favour us and if you lose then your god will be desecrated by rival tribes, your women will be killed, your rival tribe's god will prevail etc..etc. Ultimately he done everything on god’s name and every tribe had heroes, legends, story to tell. This holds good for all mythology Greek, Hindu, Persian, Christian, Muslim etc
Free Will, what’s that supposed to mean? How can you possibly deem something free when you must fear consequences? That completely conflicts with the definition of free. If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “you have free will to not give me your wallet, but if you attempt to defy me I will kill you.”Does it really feel as if you have a choice in the matter? Of course not. Free means to give or receive something with out an expectation of return. The whole free will concept is self defeating. Call it Circumstantial Will, for that is what it truly is.... Read More
As you mentioned ‘Sin’ let me ask what is a sin?
- Not killing people who won’t listen to priest, worshiping different gods?
- Working on Sabbath day?
- Eating pork, non- halal, not praying five times a day?
Let see what morals were, just couple of examples –
- If you rape a girl, just pay 50 pieces of silver and marry that girl.
- Slaves should obey their earthly masters with deep respect and fear.
- Sati – when husband dies, the girls must immolate herself
what was considered morals 2000 yrs back aren’t moral now. You don’t need to teach a mother to take care of her baby, all living creatures learnt what’s right n what’s wrong as part of survival process. Its there in our genes…So if we stop worrying about 2000 yrs old morals and scriptures, our lives would be more peaceful and meaningful.
I did watch UPO on the first day :) I too liked the movie, very well narrated but somehow felt the dialogues lacked much needed depth. I heard that “A Wednesday” the original Hindi version is really good.
October 30 at 10:29am
@Arul:
I think "free will" as I mentioned it, was not the right word. As you say, yes there are dire consequences when we go against God's laws, so God hasn't said "do what you want, without expecting any retribution". Just imagine how it would be if we were really given such a free-for-all, and no-consequences-for-any-of-your-actions kind of freedom ... it will be utter chaos. Every inclination of the human heart is towards evil ... we're always finding a loophole to exploit the system ... and we can easily blame God for it, or just deny His existence, but we're fooling ourselves. Our sinful nature is the root cause, not God, not evolution!... Read More... Read More
In this world, seeing all the injustice, even seeing the wicked prosper (read Psalm 73: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps%2073;&version=NIV;), yes it's hard to believe a loving God would tolerate all this and keep quiet. But I'm sure, His patience is just so that the wicked will come to Him, not to be a mute spectator.
God is not going to let
And yet, I'm also going to be judged the same way ... that's sobering ... even terrifying sometimes :(
Hi, sorry to intrude. i have been going through this thread. Would like to add a few points. Believing the Existence of GOd/supernatural is totally optional for you in this world. But there are few things you should know, probably you know already but refuse to accept. It is not something you argue about. You either agree or disagree but people like Paul still make it a point to let others know what they believe in because he is damn sure that he believes in a Living God, the all powerful loving creator who was, is and will be.
It is very clear that everybody dies someday. We believe that every person has an eternal soul and will be judged by God according to his/her actions and the way he/she lived his life. Might sound like fiction to non-believers but we do believe in Heaven and Hell. We believe in LIFE AFTER DEATH - ETERNAL LIFE
- THERE ARE 2 CHOICES -... Read More
1. ETERNAL CONDEMNATION and PAIN or
2. EVERLASTING JOY and HAPPINESS
Bible says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) Your understanding of sin seems to be pretty crude and shallow. Sin is simply the violation of any of God's laws. John also wrote, in I John 5:17, “All unrighteousness is sin.” But thats not it, pls Let me fill you in.
Paul(in the Bible), however, puts this in perspective in Romans 3:20, when he says, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His(God's) sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." All God wants from us is to recognize the sin in us and repent and ofc stop doing it further.
You might claim, i have never sinned, i do good stuff to people, donate a lot to the needy and feed the poor.. am i not entitled to heaven? well and good but not good enough.
Bible says "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He(God) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (1 John 1:8-10).
God hates sin. He says that our sins separate us from Him and the wages of sin is death. That is why He gave us His son Jesus Christ to die for us on the cross, to bear the punishment we ought to have had. In short, Jesus Christ is the way to heaven.
And finally, we say all this because Jesus commanded his followers to "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation" (Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8) the good news being there is salvation through Jesus Christ our God for 'everyone' and the message about His unimaginable and unconditional love for us.
What you might not have understood till date is that He is real, He answers you when you call, He is able to change any situation in your life because HE IS A LIVING GOD and HE IS WILLING TO HELP ANYONE WHO WOULD CALL UNTO HIM!
I wouldn't be surprised if you did not believe even one word of what i have said so far!!! But i'm sure you will some day when you experience what He can do for you! Hope you meet the Almighty sometime in your life ! GOd bless! :)
Paul: So you mean to say that the so-called Jehovah didn’t approve Moses and Joshua to do the murders that they committed?
“My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)”
“Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed
What I have cited above is just couple out of thousand atrocities under the command of God. If you say these are done without the approval of god then the word of Bible is wrong, does it? Its not word of God? Does “Sola Scriptura” the fundamental of Protestants still stands good?
We take only what is fit for us to follow today, rest we tend to ignore even though that were considered to be Morals then. This we call as “Selective Morals” Just to give you examples, laws on slavery and rape, Sabbath, Flat Earth, Heliocentrism etc..etc.
Its really absurd that some sect of Christianity like “Jehovah Witnesses” not doing military service or blood transfusion even in life threatening situations. Some sects won’t even go to doctors for illness but just they pray.
“Acts 15:29 (American Standard Version)
29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.”
James 5:14 (New International Version)
“Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.”
I guess we won’t just follow above verse as some sects does. How about the below funny verse,
- (The Lord Speaking) Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27 NAB)
But we do clean shave, aren’t we? Just examples of “Selective Morals” and Odds against “Sola Scriptura”
Paul: As you say God's original plan is different, we let him down by committing sin? please read the below verse
“Isaiah 45:7. “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things”.
To be more specific, let’s talk about the lord’s creation of evil, let’s talk about the conception of Satan. This being was created and unleashed by God. Jehovah knew (for he is being omniscient) that at the time of Lucifer’s creation he would eventually become Satan, and spend his existence reeking havoc on mankind. Leading people into criminal activities. Suppose I were to build an evil robot, which I knew would go around torturing and murdering people. Whose fault would it be if I let it loose? Mine or the robot’s? Of course it would be mine, for I created it with that purpose and unleashed it for that purpose. Now I ask you, whose fault is deviltry in the world? Is it the PUPPET Satan or the being that deliberately created Satan’s evil?
When Adam and Eve fell from grace, they single handedly brought evil into the world. All you have to do is think logically for a moment, and you will obviously see something is very unjust with this concept. Could any rational being hold a starving infant in
Gladson:
If we be judged by our deeds on the judgment day to decide whether to put in hell or in heaven and that is the whole purpose of living this mortal life. Just think little rationally, being omniscient the God should know the outcome of this mortal life even before you born. Then why and what to judge on the judgment day? Pls don’t give that Free Will theory here, that we discussed already.
The God that you described can’t be possible
“Can omniscient God who, Knows the future find, The omnipotence to, Change His future mind?”
So as the above paradox Omnipotence and Omniscient can’t go together.
Have you ever thought,
- What if you were to born to a different religion parents? You would be worshipping different God.
- Why the God had to give his Son to us, why not Daughter?
- Why god is on Man’s image not of Women’s?
- Why the so called son of god to be born in
- How our Sins all be washed if the so called Jesus dies on the cross?
- Why New Testament has only 4 Gospels, that too describing mostly the same stuffs? Why Gospel of Mary and Gospel of Thomas not included?
- Why the Jews (from where the Christianity started) didn’t believe your messiah?
- Why we celebrating X’mas on 25th Dec, where it is written?
- Say one straight forward verse from OT that the messiah will die on the cross. I have read top to bottom and it all depends on how you interpret.
The above questions might sound silly to you but we can debate forever on these points. As you talked about hell and heaven let me give my thoughts on that as well.
Hell, of course, is the mother of all of my problems with the bible. It is perhaps the most despicable and hideous of all of the Christian God’s crimes. Indeed, the cruelest of all concentration camps. (Certainly far worse than the ones created by the Nazis.) Described biblically as the “lake of fire”, “the place of eternal torment with weeping and gnashing of teeth” Jesus said in Mark 9:42-48 That it is better to commit suicide or self maiming then to be delivered unto hell. So, according to the bible I assume that all here can agree that there is an existence of hell, and that hell is the worst of all circumstance. Knowing this, let me indulge you as to why the existence of hell paints the Christian God as not fit for worshiping.
I am a moderately compassionate individual, rational, moral, and nurturing. I propose this to you, a human question. Can all here, Christian or atheist, safely say that if there is a God, he is our greatest thought magnified? Whatever emotion we feel as human, being created in his image, God is infinitely more feeling? For he is the creator of all things created, I believe this concept is pretty safe to assume. With this being so, say my love for my child be a fraction of God’s love for his children. I can safely say that if my child were to commit the greatest harm upon me tomorrow, I would never wish him/ her harm. Why? Simply because it is my creation.
If my child were to maim me, slander me, etc. I would still love him/ her, for my instinct and emotion demands of me to protect and care for him/ her regardless of his/her actions, much like all rational beings (animal kingdom included). So now I pose the question, why then would God condemn us to hell for something as menial as lack of faith? If he is not infinitely more so loving then me, why would hell even exist? Any true loving being would never condemn his own children to everlasting torment, especially one that proclaims himself to having the very essence of forgiveness.
I do not believe in the reality of God, except as a psychological phenomenon, but if I did believe I would not worship that horror. It violates my morality to worship a hypocritical, judgmental, self righteous murderer. In punishment, it could send me to the hell it’s made for those it dislikes, and if there was no other choice but worshiping it, I would walk in proudly.
@Arul: You have put forth a lot of arguments! Apparently, you have a lot of questions, and have researched a lot.
I have had my doubts, and I have sought and found answers for SOME of them ... for some others I have had to make a choice whether to believe A or B, and I have made my choice. So what I currently believe in, is already stated a few comments ago :)
Since I never had many of those questions that you have, and since I haven't done any research on this ... I'm ill-equipped to answer you. So that's the DISCLAIMER part!
Now let me try to answer a few of your questions based on my understanding ...
(1) Satan: God created Lucifer, an angel of light, of great beauty, a wonderful worship leader in Heaven. Lucifer fell from his position because of his pride.
- Did God know that that would happen? Yes.
- Did Lucifer have no choice but to be proud? No, he had a choice.
- Is God responsible for Lucifer's actions? No.
- Could God have forced Lucifer to not be proud? No. If you doubt that, try forcing your subordinates or even your loved ones to respect you or love you. It's not possible.
(2) Hell: Yeah I don't like that place too! That's a place for eternal punishment, created originally for Satan and his cohorts. Now we too got a free visa to enter hell through Adam/Eve, our great-grandfather/mother.
- Why should a loving God punish people in hell?
- Why can't He allow every law-breaker to go scot-free?
Well if God did that, then there is no incentive for people (or angels) to be good and obedient to Him! That single reason is enough to convince me that hell cannot be eliminated.
(3) Forgiveness: From what you have stated, it looks like you haven't forgiven anyone repeatedly, over and over for the same wrong they did to you, and who never apologized to you! That's very, very tough!
That's exactly what we're doing to God! We're destroying His creation, we're disobeying Him again and again, we never say sorry, and we expect Him to just say "go on, do what you like, damage yourself, damage everyone around you, destroy everything that I lovingly created, I'll clean up after you"?
Come on, if you have 10 kids, and one kid is killing the rest of them one by one, would you stand back and watch? You may say kill the erring child, but he's your child too. That's a tough moral dilemma and currently God is patient, He tries to get that kid's attention by sending some trouble (evil), and ultimately He may have to kill that kid ... there's no easy solution to this problem.
(4)
If you really want convincing answers to your questions, then you're asking the wrong person (me)! Distill your questions down to the most important 2 or 3 questions, seek for answers with an open mind, focused on only those 2 or 3 questions. I'm sure you'll find.
Where Did God Come From?
by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.
Q.
... Read More
How do I respond when I am asked the question “Where did God come from?”
A.
This question often is asked by sincere, well-meaning people. It rarely is far from the minds of youngsters as well. On occasion, it is asked in the creation/evolution debate by those who deny God’s existence. When pressed to explain where the matter/energy of the Universe originated, the atheist more often than not responds with the statement, “You tell me where God came from and I’ll tell you where matter/energy came from.” The atheist intends for this response to produce a “stalemate” that will prevent him from having to answer the question of the origin of matter/energy. He reasons thusly: “Christians cannot answer the question of the origin of God; therefore I will not have to answer the question of the origin of matter/energy.”
This attempt at subterfuge will not work, however. First, the atheist is comparing, to use a colloquial expression, “apples and oranges.” He is equating matter/energy (something proven to require an origin in time/space) with God (Who has no origin). The atheist thus is equating the non-eternal and temporal (matter/energy) with the eternal (God). That is both illogical and impossible. Such a comparison (in terms of “origin”) has no validity. Second, as a result of his mistake, the atheist has posed what is termed in philosophical terms a “nonsensical” question. That is to say, he has asked a question that makes no sense, and as everyone knows, nonsensical questions cannot be answered because of that very fact—they make no sense. The atheist has asked, “Where did God come from?” This, of course, implies that God “came from” somewhere—that is, He had an origin. But by definition, God is eternal. He has no origin, because eternal entities do not have origins; they are eternal. Not only has the atheist erred in making an invalid comparison (eternal vs. temporal), but he also has erred in ascribing some kind of “origin” to an eternal entity (God). God did not “come from” anywhere, nor is He “going to” anywhere. That would posit an origin, and possibly an end, for God when, in fact, He has neither.
The Scriptures speak clearly to God’s eternal nature. Deuteronomy 33:27 speaks of “the eternal God.” The psalmist referred to God as He who is “from everlasting to everlasting” (90:2). Isaiah observed that it is God Who inhabits eternity (57:15). In Psalm 102:24, the writer spoke of the Earth and heavens, and noted that “they shall perish, but thou shalt endure.... [T]hy years have no end.” God Himself told Moses, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exodus 3:14)—the formula for self-existence. God is the Eternal One Who always has existed, and Who always will exist. He lives in the ever-present. One may not describe God legitimately as a Being Who “has been” or “will be”; rather, He is described as without beginning or end, thereby precluding any “origin.” Likewise, He has no destiny. How, then, can one ask the question, “Where did God come from?” It is—in the truest sense of the word—a nonsensical question. It is right and proper to inquire regarding the origin of matter/energy (or any other temporal, non-eternal entity), because such entities do, in fact, have origins. But one cannot inquire logically regarding the origin of an entity that is defined as eternal, for such a question is meaningless. Granted, finite minds struggle to understand completely the infinite. But that is why God gave us His Word. If we “rightly divide the word of truth,” we will find that it contains “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Peter 1:3).
Originally published in Reason and Revelation, August 1989, 9[8]:29.
Paul:
It is good to know your thoughts. This little exchange that we had made me recall an interesting discussion once I had with Raja Dhas at his home during our college days. Finally I left his apartment without any convincing answer. This is never ending debate and I just want to close this by just this one post.
There are lots of rules or laws said in Bible that we must follow are not even morals to any standards. I would expect you as a believer of what said in Bible to have a reasonable explanation point by point :)... Read More
Man this list goes on and on….So I have to cut it off. pew!
- "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
So if I want to marry a girl who don’t like me, I just go and rape her and get her married? What kind of moral is this? Man this book is written by some idiots don’t even understand what love is all about, not by divine inspirations as you claim.
- "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
So slavery is accepted, you endorse that?
If you are having an open mind enough to read further and think why it said so please continue reading. Otherwise just leave it, there is no further point to discuss.
- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
- Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. (1 Timothy 2:11-15 NLT)
- As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35 NAB)
- You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything. (Ephesians 5:22-24 NLT)
- But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
- On the journey, when Moses and his family had stopped for the night, the LORD confronted Moses and was about to kill him. But Zipporah, his wife, took a flint knife and circumcised her son. She threw the foreskin at Moses' feet and said, "What a blood-smeared bridegroom you are to me!" (When she called Moses a "blood-smeared bridegroom," she was referring to the circumcision.) After that, the LORD left him alone. (Exodus 4:24-26 NLT)
- "Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
- On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 35:2-3 NAB)
- "If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the
- No child of an incestuous union may be admitted into the community of the Lord, nor any descendent of his even to the tenth generation. (Deuteronomy 23:3 NAB)
- No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:2 NAB)
- "Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all
- "Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her." (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)
- "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."
(Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
- If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
- All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
- A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
- (The Lord Speaking) Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27 NAB)
- You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first born of your sons. You must do the same for your oxen and your sheep. (Exodus 22:28-29 NAB)
Wesley Stephen: When you say something exists, it is the responsibility of the person say so to prove that it exists. As you say God existed always pls do prove it to me. I can... Read More’t take bible as the proof as many religions claim their own scriptures to be true…why do I need to believe Bible. Why not Quran or Bhgavat Geetha? The obvious existence of many Gods itself proves that there is no God.
The problem is whatever we could perceive rationally we instantly agree and whatever we couldn’t find an answer we bridge that knowledge gap with God. We as Atheists, Freethinkers go by the evidence and not by the faith. Given the nature of Earth and the complexity of living creatures, evolution is of more convincing answer than supernatural God.
@Arul: I'm really surprised at the points you've raised above! None of them are convincing proof (at least to simple me!) that the Bible is not God's word, or that the God of the Bible is a sadist!
Many of your points are taken out of context and misquoted! Let me just point out one thing: about wives submitting to husbands. In the same passage, it also says husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church. How did Christ love the Church? By giving His own life. Husbands should even be willing to die for their wives, forgetting and setting aside their selfish ambitions to care for, cherish and nourish their wives!
God creating everything is more convincing to me than evolution. How can order come out of chaos? What purpose does my unique thumb print or iris pattern serve in evolution?... Read More
Funny thing is even if I am wrong, I don't lose anything! But if I am right, then too I don't lose anything!
The thumb rule that Jesus gave (which summarizes all of God's word/laws):
(1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.
(2) Love your neighbour as you love yourself.
All other laws and bylaws should be interpreted in the spirit of the above.
I don't have all the answers. Taste and see that God is good!
Paul: This sounds very surprising to me indeed. So you don’t see anything wrong in the verses that I have posted. Well lets take one at a time
- "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29
You don’t see anything wrong in the above verse? If you don’t then I bet you have to revisit your moral classes :-)
... Read More
Wives submitting to husbands: Your point of argument is pretty weak for the simple reason that if you were reverse the verses said for wives to husbands and husbands to wives, how many of the male chauvinists out here would be happy about that.
Evolution/ Creationism: If you relate just chapter 1 alone of Genesis with the known science of today below are the contradictions:
- “And God said, Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) and “. . .And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Genesis 1 :5), versus “And God said, ‘Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night....’ “And God made two lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also… And the evening and morning were the fourth day” (Genesis 1 :14-19).
These violates two major facts. Light cannot exist without a sun, and secondly, how can morning be distinguished from evening unless there is a sun and moon? Creationists try to claim that god is the light he is referring to yet, considering the context it is quite obvious that the light god is speaking of is the light emitted by the sun. Just another feeble attempt at trying to rationalize such a MAJOR blunder
- God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program.
- Plants are made on the third day (Genesis 1:11) before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (Genesis 1:14-19).
- If Adam was created on the 6th day, approximately 6,000 years ago (Bishop Usher’s calculations), then nobody lived before 4,000 B.C. Prehistoric men would be fictitious? What about the huge no of fossil records that we have?
By tracing the genealogy of Jesus back 77 generations to Adam, the third chapter of Luke also supports belief in a very young earth. If each man had lived approximately 100 years, then the world would be no more than 9,684 (7,700 + 1984) years old. If each of Jesus’ ancestors had lived to be 1,000 years old, the earth would still be only 78,984 (77,000 + 1984) years old, according to creationists.
- God makes the animals (Genesis 2:18) and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while definitely more than a week…!
- Another thing to look at here is God created every living creature male and female on the first go. How come that it didn’t strike him that Man also needs a partner too, quite strange!
- If you look at in another aspect all these scriptures are talking only about the human, it doesn’t even care about the other living creatures that have the same set of feelings as we do have. Killing them or hurting them is not sin? Considering this I tend to say this human centered creationism story is made up by none other than humans. But on the other case if you take evolution – we all living a predator life, natural selection and survival of the fittest. This is more convincing answer for my above question.
Like what I have mentioned above every chapter has its own countless science contradictions.
“Funny thing is even if I am wrong, I don't lose anything! But if I am right, then too I don't lose anything!” – How selfish are you Paul? Please do come out of your circle and just look back what all we have done on God’s Name.
- Holocaust - how many Jews that Hitler killed just because he considered Jews as “Christ Killers”.
- How many Crusades carried out just to own the holy land
- The fighting in Gaza Strip
- The Jihads
- The crimes that happening in our states like Kandhamal riots, Gujarat riots etc
The thumb rule that Jesus gave (which summarizes all of God's word/laws):
“(1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.” – But Kill others who don’t worship your God (With respect to OT)
“(2) Love your neighbors as you love yourself.” – Love your neighbor if he is a Christian, this better suits the present situation :-)
“All other laws and bylaws should be interpreted in the spirit of the above.” - This is what I call as “Selective Morals”
@Arul:
I'm not condoning rape, slavery, murder ... on the contrary, I'm saying, "if you love God and your neighbour, you wouldn't make him a slave, or violate her".
Those detailed laws and bylaws of the old testament were given to a lawless, God-less generation, to give them rules, boundaries and punishments for transgressions. A few pieces of silver doesn't justify rape, neither does a bird/animal sacrifice wash away one's guilt.... Read More
Jesus said that if I say a hateful word to my brother, I've committed murder in my heart. If I see a woman with lust, I've committed adultery (implied rape) with her. Don't call these selective morals!
Just because people commit crimes in the name of God, that doesn't mean God approves them, nor does it mean that God doesn't exist. Let's not confuse the two.
If you think a new generation of people who don't believe in God, but believe in evolution, are going to revolutionize the world with "moral" living and create great "progress", then you're looking for utopia! Remove the fear of God, remove all rules, remove all fear of punishment -- very soon there won't be evolution but quick degradation!
I was not being selfish when I said "whether I'm right or wrong, I don't lose anything". I'm saying that is a good enough reason for everyone to believe.
Neither am I hiding behind a phantom god and committing atrocities in the name of God! I don't approve of people or organizations or nations doing evil things in God's name either.
If your intention is to pit your convictions on a "wise guy" so that you are more "enlightened" -- then you're talking to the wrong guy! Please find someone wise. If your intention is to win me over to your point of view (no God + evolution, or sadist God, or ...), then no thanks! I would rather believe in God, fear Him, than be left without an anchor in this tumultuous world.
Let me repeat: I don't have all the answers. Taste and see that God is good!
Paul: My intention is not to win you over by my conviction, I know for sure that won’t happen ever :-)
All I’m trying here is voice my opinion so that you would appreciate an Atheist point of view on looking at religion and its roots. Over the years, whenever I say “I’m an Atheist” this what I get as response!
“How could you guys reject the existence of God? You people know that he exists but you refuse to accept him, saying stupid things just for heck of doing something different.”... Read More
“What tragedy happened in your life that made you reject or hate God?”
“If you don’t follow any religion, where do you get the Morals from?”
It is very tiresome and frustrating to delineate our conviction again and again but yet end up hearing the same response again!
Do you know that nearly 1/4th of the World’s population is Secular?
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
Europe is getting more and more secular for instance
So if you were to remove religion or fear of God everyone ends up doing crime is not true. More so not all the guys who are in Jails are Atheists, in fact most of them are Theists. So even with the fear of God why they land up in Jail?
Interestingly most of the country’s laws are not based on any religious laws except for the Talibans and some Muslim countries that are very particular in implementing Sharia Laws. If you take US which is relatively newly formed compared to the traditionally old countries – “Separation of Church and the State” forms the fundamental of their constitution unlike
As you presume it is not the new generation of people turned secular… people were fighting religious convictions for centuries, even during the time it was considered as heresy and were given death penalty.
If Galileo were succumbed to Pope’s threats, nobody would have taught us Heliocentrism, still we would be thinking Sun revolves around the Earth. If
So what I’m trying to say here is please don’t utter the below words when you hear someone say that he/ she is an Atheist
“Hope you meet the Almighty sometime in your life.” Or "One day you will find God" etc etc. rather do acknowledge what we are and what we believe!
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